tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post4601784874354168385..comments2007-11-11T23:59:13.496-08:00philhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12454070436100423285switchfeed@gmail.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-38122919974317048462007-08-21T11:55:00.000-07:002007-08-21T11:55:00.000-07:002007-08-21T11:55:00.000-07:00This was a good post Phil, thank you I've never really seen this reasoned view of why people should try to turn the other cheek. i have some qualms about the idea that life *should* be fair, but i agree that love is the way to go :)<BR/><BR/>I liked your perspective too kristen, and it did help :)<BR/><BR/>regards, moomoosnakeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-36242695523270209492007-06-24T12:38:00.000-07:002007-06-24T12:38:00.000-07:002007-06-24T12:38:00.000-07:00oh, ok :)sarahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-46518605935909270732007-06-22T08:23:00.000-07:002007-06-22T08:23:00.000-07:002007-06-22T08:23:00.000-07:00Oh definitely Sarah, that's not how I meant it to come off! Sorry! I mean that love is so strong, and so determined, that if bad things happen, it will try to do whatever it can to do its work. When hatred and pain are present, love presents itself even stronger, and tries to use the strength of the hatred against it, much like in the martial art Aikido. <BR/><BR/>And that's exactly what you'd be doing if you use this type of revenge that Phil talks about.<BR/><BR/>I hope that clarifies it. :)<BR/><BR/>I wrote so many versions of that response that I forget what I ended up including. ;)Kristenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17094938902241425713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-91020384639345828862007-06-22T07:23:00.000-07:002007-06-22T07:23:00.000-07:002007-06-22T07:23:00.000-07:00i'm sorry i didn't get around to reading this for the longest time! dearest phil, i am so proud of you, you finally did it! It was everything i'd hoped it would be and straigtened out many of the ideas i had about Revenge. <BR/><BR/>Kristen, as for your post, i don't agree with the part where you said that love even uses hatred and death and injustice to accomplish its goals. I don't think love has anything to do with that. it sounds like, " doing wrong to do right-the end justifies the means" thinking to me. God is perfect. God is Love. So if God can not be in the presence of any type of sin, it only makes sense that Love cannot as well. Just a thought.sarahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-58393120041185966772007-06-21T12:05:00.000-07:002007-06-21T12:05:00.000-07:002007-06-21T12:05:00.000-07:00Sorry this is so long:<BR/><BR/>This isn’t really a critique or anything, I’m just going through your essay and giving my thoughts. Part of my effort will probably be to de-Christianize parts of it so that it is accessible to those amongst us who reject those premises. I may fail miserabley though because I'm sure I'll get carried away. ;) <BR/><BR/>What I think is absolutely incredible is that these truths have been communicated not *just* through Christianity, but through almost every major religion in the world! It knocks the breath out of me how profound life is and how we all come to the same answers independently!<BR/><BR/>So, here goes:<BR/><BR/><I>I think when Christ instructed his followers to show the other cheek[i], what’s more relevant than whether or not he actually expects us to do that, is that he was hinting at a great truth. I believe He was teaching us a higher form of revenge that He later epitomized with His death at the cross: a revenge that absorbs. A revenge that steals away rage. A godly revenge: where, by absorbing sin, and thereby nullifying it, you are exacting revenge not against the guy who slapped you, but against the hate in him which made him do it in the first place. You kill that evil (true revenge), rather than multiply it with a slap of your own (foolish revenge). “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”[ii] That instruction from Christ was a brief look into the deep-impact psychology of the Kingdom of God, that is baffling at times in how it characteristically turns common sense upside-down (“How can someone’s death on a cross save me?!”), yet amazing in its genius when you pause to think about it.</I><BR/><BR/>YES! You’re getting at here what I’ve been trying to say over and over again ever since reading Dostoevsky’s The Grand Inquisitor! That there is a fundamental difference in method between the normal operations of things and the way that religion (or rather, the higher method) would have us act. The ways of thinking are completely different! Not that the normal operation is bad, as it’s perfectly natural, it’s just that there’s a higher method. If we are committed to expanding our field of awareness and becoming the best people possible, this other path is the one we should endeavor to take.<BR/><BR/><I>When there's ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, it only follows that there be a reward system, as incentive to seek right over wrong. For 6 billion free wills to coexist in harmony, screw-ups need to be paid for. So, a perfectly just God's (if He may not seem so right now, look at His justice as a process that will one day be completed and revealed to all) universe was created with the principle that we are responsible for our actions – that goodness would be rewarded, and the opposite should have consequences. Keeping with His just character, He wisely decided retribution would be necessary (unless we were all perfect beings).</I><BR/><BR/>This is sort of a practical, consequentialist view of reward and punishment. Actually, in my view, all of this belongs to the worldy/profane part, not the sacred. These rules and requirements are things we need to practically live in a diverse and large society. Things like the ten commandments are there to help us set up those rules. But there is *so much more* to religion than just rules and rewards and punishments. That’s only the very first step. Every religion has its basic moral rules, but the most profound truths can only be found when you assimilate them and move beyond them. That is what “God’s justice” and that higher method is all about.<BR/><BR/>The same exists in Buddhism in the contrast between karma and dharma, I do believe. Many people work to store up good karma, which is the worldly justice. But those who are truly committed work to transcend karma altogether, to get out of the cycles of rebirth and reward and punishment. I think it's very similar to what we've been discussing. Love is our ticket out of reward and punishment. Out of that system, to a plane where nothing is as simple, but everything is made clear.<BR/><BR/>As for the actual song, I think your analysis is very good. Of course, I’m most interested in the implications, rather than the actual analysis. :)<BR/><BR/><I>The Beautiful Irony…</I><BR/><BR/>Ahh, irony. I seriously think that irony is one of the most central principles to the Christian faith. It’s one of the main things that keeps me coming back for more. ;)<BR/><BR/><I>I think Jon might be asking, “have hatred and gravity both won?” At the cross, in a way, they both did win, but briefly. The haters spat and killed and split the spoils, and love still descended. Love didn't take the hatred away, but absorbed it, paid for it, and then overlooked it because it was paid for – it was no longer messing up the equation. </I><BR/><BR/>While this is important historically for Christians, it’s important in everyday life for everyone. There are two main lessons we can take from it. The first is the extreme power of love (the higher method) to overcome anything. Love is so powerful that it can even use *hatred* and *death* to accomplish its goals. And this is an incredibly profound truth in the way that God works in the world (or if you don’t like supreme beings, the way the “higher method” works in the world). It even uses seeming injustices to impart its justice! <BR/><BR/>As an example, I’m going to use the Woody Allen movie Match Point. If you haven’t seen it, don’t read this part. The main character of the film, Chris, doesn’t believe in justice. He’s teetering on the brink of nihilism, and wants desperately to find meaning and justice in the world around him. As a result, he keeps pushing and pushing, and ultimately commits horrible and criminal acts. And he gets away with it, thus proving to him that there is *no* justice in the world. But the incredible, amazing, genius thing about that story is that the *worst* thing that could have happened to Chris was him realizing that there is no justice. His punishment, his dispensement of justice, was exactly that there was no justice. And that was the worst punishment he could have received, and he doesn’t realize it. The irony and the power of it is incredible.<BR/><BR/>And life does this to us all the time. It can often feel so meaningless, but there is meaning around every corner. Life (or the Holy Spirit, if you prefer) is constantly edging us towards goodness, no matter how far into darkness we fall. And somehow, when darkness is at its strongest, love is even *stronger.*<BR/><BR/>The other lesson that it teaches us is about suffering. To open the gates of heaven, Jesus suffered and died. He sacrificed himself. What does this say for us? To reach the infinite, to reach perfection (which we are always striving towards and trying to take shortcuts to), we have to go *through* the shit. Excuse my language, but that word is the only one that really has the correct power. There is no way to get to God, or to the higher method, or to enlightenment, without going through daily life and all the shit that comes with it. And what’s even more, is that we *need* that suffering in order to get anywhere in life. As morbid as it sounds, growing is all about dying. And not just dying for the sake of dying, but dying for the sake of love. Sacrifice. <BR/> <BR/>The process of transformation is tied inexorably to suffering.<BR/><BR/>I could go on and on about all the implications of this. Especially the part about how hatred signifies Day 2, and gravity signifies Day 1. Only together can Day 3 ever really come. Because it is a synthesis. Kitch (naïve optimism) + disillusionment/suffering  beauty and love. You can’t have true beauty without suffering.<BR/><BR/>I know I use this Day 1,2,3 stuff a lot, sorry about that. I know sometimes I go from trying to explain things to others to trying to explain things to myself. Those are the terms I best understand. ;)<BR/><BR/>And lastly, here is a quote from the book I just read that I think fits the point of your essay perfectly:<BR/><BR/>"If you are able to take upon yourself the crime of the criminal who stands before you and whom you are judging in your heart, do so at once, and suffer for him yourself, and let him go without reproach. And even if the law sets you up as a judge, then, too, act in this spirit as far as you can, for he will go away and condemn himself more harshly than you would condemn him. And if, having received your kiss, he goes away unmoved and laughing at you, do not be tempted by that either: it means that his time has not yet come, but it will come in due course; and if it does not come, no matter: if not he, then another will know, and suffer, and judge, and accuse himself, and the truth will be made full. Believe it, believe it without doubt, for in this lies all hope and all the faith of the saints."<BR/><BR/>-The Elder Priest Zosima in Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoevskyKristenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17094938902241425713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-35955177889550929272007-06-18T09:02:00.000-07:002007-06-18T09:02:00.000-07:002007-06-18T09:02:00.000-07:00Wow. That's almost all I can say. Thanks for this follow-up/much needed Revenge post. This is something that really strikes me about SF...they have songs with very real subject matter and things that you can think about and talk about for hours. I think when it comes down to it, that's the most important thing.Ynnejnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-51134401014767619262007-06-17T22:19:00.000-07:002007-06-17T22:19:00.000-07:002007-06-17T22:19:00.000-07:00I've been waiting for this post and it turned out to be well worth the wait. Thanks for your interpretations and well-organized synthesis of ideas.<BR/>I need to re-read it again tomorrow when it's not 1am to be able to fully grasp this essay, but for now... Nicely done, friend! And thanks, Switchfoot.Emilywww.myspace.com/acoffeebreaknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-72085419785956725872007-06-17T16:59:00.000-07:002007-06-17T16:59:00.000-07:002007-06-17T16:59:00.000-07:00wow phil... that was really good. I loved reading it. very insighful.melaniehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13577177081726422424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-45179032130166192282007-06-17T10:57:00.000-07:002007-06-17T10:57:00.000-07:002007-06-17T10:57:00.000-07:00k, ill read it, and i did hear you, i just wanted al least one more opinion . :-PMikeyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03140215712577897245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-58459366447692761042007-06-17T10:43:00.000-07:002007-06-17T10:43:00.000-07:002007-06-17T10:43:00.000-07:00miguel, i TOLD you to just read it. remember i said it was worth it? and it would make you smarter? you need to start listening to your big sis. just read a little at a time if you think you can't do it all at once.Vickyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07221845785202786073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-49477975892256383012007-06-16T22:14:00.000-07:002007-06-16T22:14:00.000-07:002007-06-16T22:14:00.000-07:00well, i reallllllly wanna read this post, but im afraid ill be dead by the time i finish, so someone, please tell me what i should do.Mikeyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03140215712577897245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-62497608828874383012007-06-16T19:48:00.000-07:002007-06-16T19:48:00.000-07:002007-06-16T19:48:00.000-07:00I had never thought very hard about the lyrics to "revenge" before... thanks for discussing it, phil. I am once again blown away by jon's writing skills.Kristahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15267273303144286411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-15705769705855463602007-06-16T17:45:00.000-07:002007-06-16T17:45:00.000-07:002007-06-16T17:45:00.000-07:00crazy. it sounds like something for my bible class. Great job Phil!<BR/><BR/>-Jobstonewall10http://www.blogger.com/profile/06149063647341259313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-80090311833115983452007-06-16T17:00:00.000-07:002007-06-16T17:00:00.000-07:002007-06-16T17:00:00.000-07:00What's up, Switchfoot? You guys are very cool. By the way, anyone want to join a rock music forum? We have Switchfoot on our band list. Come check us out! http://jesushideout.informe.comSwitchfoot fannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-86287184736655090212007-06-16T16:58:00.000-07:002007-06-16T16:58:00.000-07:002007-06-16T16:58:00.000-07:00so amazingly well-put phil:<BR/><BR/>When bad things happen to good people, why does that discrepancy bother us? I believe it’s because, deep inside, we feel an innate need for justice to be met, and when we rarely see that happening, or when our pride is hurt, we become short-sighted and are pushed to take matters into our own hands; and, in the process, while we may achieve an earthly standard (mostly an illusion) of justice, we understandably fail at achieving the higher, pure, complete justice (or ‘revenge’)<BR/><BR/>I think you deserve a pat on the back for this one.Muktahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13803796749684794507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-82283712618013407692007-06-16T16:33:00.000-07:002007-06-16T16:33:00.000-07:002007-06-16T16:33:00.000-07:00Phil<BR/>Well done. I wish I had your gift of writing. I know much time went into it and we all appreciate it.Lorinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-87727954018776375222007-06-16T16:04:00.000-07:002007-06-16T16:04:00.000-07:002007-06-16T16:04:00.000-07:00phil this was astoundingly great. i thought i had been blown away by the 4:12 post, but this tops that for sure. i printed it off and read it at work today when it was quiet, and i had to try very hard not to cry. such a beautiful song, i love the way you delved into it and revealed this amazing truth underneath. thank you so, so much.<BR/><3 God blessjustinewww.myspace.com/jss24noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-33351578711689590882007-06-16T16:00:00.000-07:002007-06-16T16:00:00.000-07:002007-06-16T16:00:00.000-07:00amazing take on an amazing song.popnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-49604624993313214432007-06-16T13:59:00.000-07:002007-06-16T13:59:00.000-07:002007-06-16T13:59:00.000-07:00I would love to live with Switchfoot.That's like me and my best friend's dream!I LOVE SWITCHFOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!Their music is amazing.Who wouldn't like their amazing terrifc stunning beutiful music!SWITCHFOOT YOU ROCK!!!!!YOUR MY FAVORITE BAND!JOHN FOREMAN YOU ROCK!!!!!!!!!!THE WHOLE BAND ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!YOU GUYS ARE SOOOOOOO AWESOME!!!!I WISH YOU GUYS COULD BE MY FRIENDS!!!!I remember one of your conserts it was the BEST DAY OF MY LIFE!!I"LL NEVER FORGET YOU SWITCHFOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-81005255897990902892007-06-16T13:47:00.000-07:002007-06-16T13:47:00.000-07:002007-06-16T13:47:00.000-07:00Wow! Wow! Wow!!!!!!! that was sooo awesome!!!!!!! You are an amazing writer! I loved how you showed the different outlooks from the different people and compared it to a movie. I wanna be a screenwriter and It really makes sense to me when you explained it like that. it was soooo sweet!!!! You rock!! :cool: <BR/><3 jesiKajesiKanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-2086709335521767492007-06-16T12:56:00.000-07:002007-06-16T12:56:00.000-07:002007-06-16T12:56:00.000-07:00for those wondering about the asphixiation thing, you can read an essay (that is both bibilical and anatomical) about Christ's crucifuction at http://www.csun.edu/~hbeng151/icc/studies/account.html. It's kind of an 'anatomy of a crusifiction', like Phil's post, so if you dislike the beauty that something like that takes away, I would suggest not reading it. That being said, I found it really interesting (but I'm also an anatomy dork..)Katrinanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-87380685368516990452007-06-16T09:40:00.000-07:002007-06-16T09:40:00.000-07:002007-06-16T09:40:00.000-07:00Wow... nicely put Phil. I really enjoy reading these. :)Nathan Khttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15813706929255389194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-7934582541572425072007-06-16T08:43:00.000-07:002007-06-16T08:43:00.000-07:002007-06-16T08:43:00.000-07:00im with rose.Vickyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07221845785202786073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-13479790259690257792007-06-16T08:30:00.000-07:002007-06-16T08:30:00.000-07:002007-06-16T08:30:00.000-07:00It seems that since this post was put up, I have read and reread it everytime I come on. I have lost count now. I am not sure why. For me, I guess when I have something that really makes me think, it'll draw you in. Everytime I read it I get something more out of it. Whether I agree with what it is about it or not. There's something different, a different way of seeing something, a different thought or opinion. I am analytical and maybe that's what drew me to this piece.<BR/><BR/>@gellie. I remembering hearing the same thing too about the death on the crucifix of asphixiation.<BR/><BR/>You can look at it both ways: metaphysically vs. physically. I think in a sense there is no right or wrong way. Sometimes metaphysical can have a positive or negative affect on the person which affect them in the physical sense.Cookienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6864645736383964039.post-73027226835334039512007-06-16T08:21:00.000-07:002007-06-16T08:21:00.000-07:002007-06-16T08:21:00.000-07:00@everyone, thanks for the kind words, I'm glad this touched many of you. it's the ultimate joy of a writer to feel like his work might have enriched someone's life. thanks for reading, it's such an honor.<BR/><BR/>also, since I posted this yesterday, I've heavily edited it - corrected and revised things quite a bit, to make some parts tighter. added more footnotes as well. hoping the work will be judged as it stands now, than as it stood yesterday, heh.<BR/><BR/>@gellie, thanks for that haha, i'd forgotten. great insight on the "have hatred and gravity won?" part.<BR/><BR/>@kristen, hey! looking forward to your feedback. would be great if you could copy/paste it here as well. :)<BR/><BR/>@anonymous, fixed the footnote links, thanks for pointing that out.<BR/><BR/>and, yes, to whomsoever it may concern, i'm single, all marriage proposals may kindly be addressed to switchfeed@gmail.com :P<BR/>...kidding<BR/>but yes, feedback by email is more than welcome.Philhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12454070436100423285noreply@blogger.com